One Nation Under Absurdity
Posted by Brandon | Filed under Articles
Today’s article will be a fairly common topic and I felt that I should more clearly state my position on religious references in our society. You’ll hear a lot of atheists that seem to want to take out any reference to god found in anything related to government. Some examples would be our currency saying “In God We Trust”, or the famous “One nation under god” in our pledge of allegiance.
At first, I was against things like this. I thought “Hey, if it’s always been there just quit complaining and leave it.” It wasn’t until later that I found out that it wasn’t always like this. “One nation under god” was added to our pledge of allegiance in 1954. It was pushed by The Knights of Columbus (a catholic fraternal group from New York) several times and failed until President Eiesnhower passed the bill saying:
“These words will remind Americans that despite our great physical strength we must remain humble. They will help us to keep constantly in our minds and hearts the spiritual and moral principles which alone give dignity to man, and upon which our way of life is founded.”
When I hear a Christian argue that you should not change our country or the principles it was founded upon religion I really want to laugh because that is exactly what happened to our pledge of allegiance. It made no mention of a deity until a group tried over and over again to change it. (A less obvious example would be “In God We Trust” which was added during the civil war”)
Our country was built upon separation of church and state. The founding fathers were secularists and that is something, we today, need to remind ourselves of.
I know there are probably hundreds of examples of religious references in our society. For example: the ten commandments that were removed from a courthouse. This one I had to think about for awhile but came to the conclusion that the decision to remove them was the right one. Though in themselves the ten commandments aren’t necessarily wrong or conflicted with morals we have today; they still have no reason to be advertised at a government building. All of our laws should be based upon the constitution, not an ancient book written in a different country.
If you feel differently please post a comment and get a discussion going. On a side note, I think I will figure out how to add forums to this site in order to have an easier way of debating.
I wrote a related post a while back:
http://ralree.info/2007/7/18/under-god
haha Funny post.
The 10 commandments “aren’t necessarily wrong or conflicted with morals we have today”? Have you read the bible? Just for your info, we don’t stone people, to death, for adultery, disrespecting our parents, or idol worship. Saying things like this, that the 10 commandments are basically a good thing, is outright ignorance. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Biblical law is evil, no different than the Sharia law that Muslims would impose given the chance. Here’s just one example:
You’re a 10 year old girl. Your father sexually abuses you daily. Your mother beats you when you tell her about it. You run to the neighbor, who happens to be an atheist, muslim, mormon, or protestant, and they help you escape from your misery. What would the bible’s outstanding moral guidlines, as outlined in the 10 commandments, recommend? Why, stone the little girl and the neighbor, of course. They violated the 10 commandments, not the parents. Such high moral standards these Christians have, it’s disgusting. By the way, which 10 commandments are you speaking of? Read the book, you’ll find that the unerring word of God is internally inconsistent as to what they are. Kind of like the creation of man, or the passion of the christ, the bible just can’t keep it’s story straight. It’s time to stop accepting the Bible as something that is beyond reproach. Anyone who takes moral guidance from goat herders that would be blown away by the technology of a wheel barrow gets exactly what they deserve. The church kept the bible and its services in Latin for centuries for a reason. Now that people can read, the end of religion is nearing. Thank god.
Interesting read my friend.
Rob, I think what he meant by the Ten Commandments was the basic form of them. Don’t kill, steal, lie, etc. are good morals to live by. Sure, the consequences that Christians impose on such trespasses are insane, but those simple ten rules aren’t quite a bad idea. I agree with you on the rest of what you said, but I think you misinterpreted that part of the post.
Exactly what Avry said, I actually have read much of the bible. Did I say that the consequences for breaking the 10 commandments were not conflicted? No, I did not. The basic principles of the 10 commandments are indeed fine to live by. They do not conflict whatsoever (well maybe the parents thing haha) with how we should live today. And you don’t need to explain to me about stoning, I’m very well aware of how they thought you should punish someone.
Another thing is that much of the bible is wise. And if you don’t think then you need to go read it. There are parts of it that are indeed very respectable. However, there is much of it that is absolutely ridiculous as well. This is the first time I’ve had to argue for the bible so try not to make me do it again.
Wise? Unicorns, bashing babies against rocks, wiping feces on faces, ritual human sacrifice, rape, murder, slavery, thousands of contradictions, unfulfilled prophecy, a lying savior (And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS), Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 NAB), etc.) Yes, I’ve read this disgusting tome many times, I would wager that I know it better than most christians. Of course, most christians know nothing about their “good book”, the church has kept it that way by force for centuries. So you people believe the 10 commandments, or at least 1 or 2 of them, but don’t agree with the punishments? I think a commandment is just that, not a suggestion for you to interpret at will. You either buy it, or you don’t. And what would make anybody think that one needs religion to find murder and stealing wrong? We evolved as social animals, these “morals” increase our chances of survival. (See Darwin)
My main issue with the commandments is that they are canned rules taken out of any meaningful context, not true principles. For example, suppose you were in Nazi Germany and were hiding some Jews from the Gestapo. Lying to them would be quite appropriate, in that context. It would be appropriate because you are protecting innocent people from monsters. Likewise, if some maniac was coming at you and your children with a butcher knife, then you would be right to shoot him dead, for the same reasons. A good principle will allow you to determine a proper course of action in a broad range of contexts, even in ones where the necessary action is the opposite of the norm.
I would say that a reasonable justification for the prohibition of murder is the fact that if you want to live, then you will want other people to leave you in peace. Since they are also human beings who want to live like you, then you should be consistent and leave them be as well. You can decide to murder someone if you want, but then you don’t have any justification to protest if they retaliate and execute you.
There is nothing divine about morality, it is merely the recognition that if you don’t treat people the way you want to be treated, then you have no reason to complain (for example, to a court of law) when they retaliate. The reason it is ok to lie to and if necessary to kill murderers is because they have no right to expect good treatment from those they harm.
I think you have a definite bias against the bible. To say that there’s not one line of text in there that doesn’t have some positive moral message seems absurd to me. You keep bringing up individual verses that are indeed insane. I’m not saying that there isn’t crazy parts to the bible. There obviously is without any doubt in my mind. I’m only pointing out that there is a few good ones as well. Some basic core concepts in there I think you can take to heart and feel ok about.
Name one.
Hitler built some nice roads, too. I guess by your standards that means that he wasn’t all bad. Name just one moral concept, one piece of intelligent thought, that the bible has uniquely presented to the world. Not a concept that existed before the bible, either. What is UNIQUELY moral or good or revolutionary about the bible? NOTHING!!! You can claim that I have a bias against the bible, but it’s not my bias, it belongs to you. You have been raised in a culture that has brainwashed you into thinking that the bible MUST have good in it somewhere. Read it- it doesn’t. My journey from a believer to an evangelical atheist passed through the same stage you are, 20 some years ago. I have studied under Jesuit priests, I have read the bible from front to back, including the apocrypha, many, many times in the last 30 years. You have no standing when you say that there are positive moral messages without naming even one example. I see a lot of “faith” in your statement, and it is hard for me to remember where you are coming from. I’m guessing that you are younger than I, and I won’t tell you that with age comes wisdom. What comes from age is time; time to actually read the bible, time to study its sources, not only who wrote it, but the conditions under which it was written, the people that the writings were speaking to, the historical significance of what is being written. You, too, with enough study, I am sure, will sooner or later come to the conclusion that none of it is applicable today, and that the morality of the people that this was written not only for but by would by no means be acceptable in the modern world. I have hope for you. Someday for you, also, the light of knowledge will dawn. Lux Sit.
First of all, let me just say I appreciate you contributing to this site and what I’m trying to build here. I want to try to step away from anything personal. Just thought I’d mention that.
Second, I never said it was revolutionary or that it presented new or unique ideas and I don’t recommend reading the bible to garner any new revolutionary morality. The basic idea that you should not kill, should not steal and blah blah blah is, in most cases, a good one. Obviously I think that that sort of absolutism is false. Another example would be standing up to goliath or the good samaritan and showing compassion to people in need. But again, if you look at these stories deeper there’s more to it. I only meant in a very general sort of way.
Also, the comparison to Hitler is not accurate. To be more true to what I’m saying you could say that I think “Hitler built good roads but was a complete moronic idiot that deserved the bullet he put through his own head.” The bible as a whole is an out of date, cruel and wicked book. I probably should have made my stance on it more clear and I thank you for pointing that out.
Thanks again for contributing, I love a good discussion!
Don’t misunderstand me, my brother. There is nothing personal in what I have written. I think you may perceive it that way because your core beliefs are being challenged. I understand, I was there once. You’ll get over that when you accept that the bible is complete rubbish, which happens sooner or later if you are sincere in your quest for truth, as I can see that you are. You’re just getting on the freeway, the onramp is a bit scary, but when you get up to speed it’s all cruise control.
“Christ said “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” and when asked “who is thy neighbour? went on to the parable of the Good Samaritan. If you wish to understand this parable as it was understood by his hearers, you should substitute “Al Queda” for Samaritan. I fear my modern day Christians would resent such a substitution, because it would compel them to realize how far they have departed from the teachings of the founder of their religion.” This was originally Bertrand Russell’s comment, but about Nazi’s instead of Islamic fundamentalists, I made that change to make it current. Still true, though.
Remember, according to the bible, the “Good Samaritan” is currently gnashing his teeth in eternal hell fire while their perfect savior looks on for eternity. And you use this as a moral teaching that is worthy? The fact of the matter is that in one short response to my comment you have totally backed down from your assertion of only one day ago, that the bible has good in it. Now you are forced to realize that there is nothing uniquely good about it. As you say, if one looks at these stories deeper there is more to it. The only difference between your position and mine is that I HAVE looked deeper into those stories, and the “more to it” part doesn’t make it moral or good, in fact quite the opposite. You said earlier that you’ve read “most” of the bible. Just like a lot of christians. I suggest you read it all, then read it again, then read about when the bible was written, when it was canonized, how it has changed, how translation has altered it. Then read it again. Then we can talk about how “moral” it is. Until then, know that you have been challenged to prove me wrong. You won’t. Please try. Remove the blinders our judeo-christian society has placed upon us, and you will see things much more clearly. It’s not easy, but I have faith that you will. Keep up the good work.
P.S. I realize that I am much more comfortable discussing the bible with a believer. They’re so easy. Discussing degrees of disagreement with the bible is much more challenging, you already know 90% of it is crap, makes for a different type of argument. I appreciate it,
Thanks.
I don’t know if you people read the same commandments I did, but here they are:
1) you shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
4) Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you.
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.
5) Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
6) You shall not murder.
7) Neither shall you commit adultery.
9) Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.
10) Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
—
Some of those are ok generic principles that were around forever before the monotheistic religions, but most of it is worthless claptrap.
haha Amen to that.
First off, I would like to mention I agree with your post wholeheartedly. I would like to mention. the pledge of allegiance also came out of the civil war. Maybe not the exact words (especially the “under god”), but citizens of the southern states were forced to quote an allegiance pledge.
Secondly, even speaking literally, the less direct commandments do not say what many people believe they do. Take for example the first: “Thou shall have no other god(s) before me.” This does not say “Thou shall have no other gods,” but rather none should worshiped more than he. A college professor who is Christian pointed this out.
I don’t know where Edwin got his 10 commandments, but they aren’t mine. They are as follows:
I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Thou shalt not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
An intelligent, thoughtful person with a well developed personal ethical code will be able to draw something useful, moral or thought provoking from almost any book, be it Harry Potter or the Bible, while discarding the rest.
The problem comes when people without intelligence, judgement and ethics read books such as the bible and then try to interpret them as literal truth, and enforce their teachings on others. It doesn’t work any better with the bible than it would with Harry Potter.
Interestingly, these people only seem to take on board the bits of the bible that agree with their own prejudices. Many fundamentalists, for example, are very opposed to homosexuality, divorce, evolution (fill in other fundie oddities of your choice) but ignore the parts of the bible forbidding the consumption of pork and shellfish, the ruling that people with imperfect sight (eg need glasses) cannot attend church, and the command to give others whatever they ask of you – for example your wallet and your car.
My favorite definition of god is….
Dog spelled backwards… which is a son of a bitch.. and that is what we are.. sons of bitches.
^^ Speak for yourself, brother.
Спасибо за текст! Очень понравилось
Thanks! Nice post.